Two very different petitions have recently been created to address the increasing homeless crisis on the Upper West Side. Both aim to create awareness and compel action from local, city, and state politicians.
In addition to these two petitions, which we describe below, a Facebook group called Upper West Siders for Safer Streets was recently formed. Since inception, the group has become a sounding board for concerned locals who have witnessed multiple crimes and are looking for a place to turn for help. On the other hand, some UWS residents say that groups like these represent a NIMBY mentality, and have created their own petition as a reaction to what they see as the unfair stigma of a life-saving program.
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“Residents, including myself, have observed drug use in public. This situation is making life uncomfortable for residents and putting families, children and the elderly in harms way. Please sign the petition and share the link if you are in support of relocating these men,” reads the petition.
The petition and its signatories want to see change, but many of its supporters do want to see the men get help. Comments left on the petition state that they understand how challenging the homeless situation is, and would like to see these men get the services they need. “Nothing wrong with providing a challenged population with necessary social services, but it has to be done in a more thoughtful way,” states one of the commenters.
Thoughtfulness seems to be what is lacking amongst local politicians. With Council Member Helen Rosenthal flip-flopping on her stance to protect the community, it’s hard to know who has the power to do anything about this situation.
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A second and very different petition has also been created. Titled Upper West Siders for a Compassionate, Safe and Equitable Community, this petition reflects Helen Rosenthal’s new statement that the homeless shelters are temporary and part of a plan to reduce the spread of COVID.
“This program is literally saving lives, and is smartly making use of hotels that are sitting empty due to the pandemic, which also supports local businesses. Every neighborhood in the city is being asked to do their part. Over 60,000 New Yorkers are currently experiencing homelessness and the UWS houses approximately 2% of them*. We cannot let misinformation about individuals experiencing homelessness get in the way of keeping our whole community safe,” states the petition.
This petition also calls out people who take and post pictures of the homeless men they are concerned about.
“We have witnessed in the past weeks people posting photographs of these men, often simply sitting on a corner and speaking to their friends or members of the community; discouraging others from donating to those in shelter; and speaking about these men in ways that take away their humanity. Regardless of where a person stands on this issue, we want to invite people to think about these men as human beings, with hopes, fears, and stories of their own.”
The petition ends by noting the image of the UWS is one of progressively-minded people coming together to fight injustices.
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Upper West Siders on both sides of the issue have expressed their annoyance that petitions and Facebook groups do little to help effectuate change or solutions to the problems they highlight. There is a sense that complaining about the issue does little to move the needle, and they are looking for more action oriented solutions.
New Yorkers for Safer Streets (not the same as Upper West Siders for Safer Streets) is a large and influential group which has been addressing the issues of street safety, particularly with regard to homelessness and crime. The NYFSS leadership team has spent many months meeting with elected officials to educate them on crime and safety statistics.
In a recent letter to Helen Rosenthal, they remind her of their concerns about transparency and accountability.
“Since the inception of NYFSS, we have advocated for safe and humane housing for homeless New Yorkers in addition to advocating for the overall safety of our neighborhoods. When we met with you last November, we raised our concerns about the lack of safety in and around Upper West Side homeless shelters, and expressed our outrage that the Department for Homeless Services (DHS), which is an NYC government agency, operates without transparency, accountability, or community engagement. DHS continues to operate with impunity, and the agency’s recent actions in our neighborhood have put the safety of our families at risk more than ever,” reads the letter.
NYFSS has also outlined steps that elected officials should be taking to make progress. These steps include demanding transparency from DHS on plans to move people into shelters around the city, ensuring no sex offenders are moved close to schools or playgrounds, working with the NYPD to ensure safety in the communities, making sure information is shared to the community regarding inspections of shelters and contracts with local businesses, and making sure shelters are compliant with state and city laws. Groups such as NYFSS aim to provide action-oriented solutions for some of the pressing problems our city faces. The full letter can be viewed here.
We have reached out to Helen Rosenthal’s office to find out if there is an end date for the city contracts with Hotel Belleclaire, The Lucerne, and the Belnord Hotel. We are waiting to hear back from her office.
The photos being taken of the new residents of the Upper West Side hotels show these men congregating in groups without masks; smoking pot or K2; urinating in public or being so intoxicated that they can’t sit upright. This is happening in areas where residents need to walk and go about their daily business. A woman has been stabbed at the W 72nd St subway stop, a man was sucker punched while dining with his wife on Columbus Avenue. Residents are being approached with frequency by panhandlers. These men are homeless not because they’re down on their luck but because they are addicts or violent offenders who can’t be rehabilitated. Most Upper West Siders would be very open to receiving families with children who are homeless because of job loss or other circumstances not of their own making.
The stabbing, sucker punch and panhandlers may have NOTHING to do with the “new” homeless in the area. As for WHY they are homeless, you are utterly incorrect. Having worked with the homeless for over a decade, and studied the situation for decades, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of homelessness is NOT caused by the factors you cite. In fact, quite the opposite, more homeless people BECOME drug addicts and violent offenders AS A RESULT OF their homelessness, not the other way around. Most homelessness is, in fact, cause by “circumstances not of their own making.” My comments are backed up by years of study, and almost every single homelessness organization in the City.
And yet, Ian, those assaults happened after these men took residence at the hotels on the UWS. I’ve lived here since 1977. The neighborhood was dicey then and I don’t want to see that happen again. The fact is that since these men have taken up residence here the pictures I have seen that have been taken of them in public show exactly what was described in my original comment. Because people are alarmed by this does not mean they don’t want the disenfranchised to receive the services they need. That’s not happening in this case. Please don’t demonize your neighbors for being concerned about their own safety
The stabber was a subway rider who the police did not indicate was a homeless man, or residing in this area. The “puncher” was arrested, and gave an address in Queens. Would you PLEASE stop accusing the “new” homeless on the UWS of everything bad that happens, particularly when there is ZERO evidence that they have?
Truly, there has been a sharp increase in crime since the pandemic began in all areas of NYC. I wouldn’t mind seeing the police reports of the assailants in both incidences. I assume you have? Aside from these two incidents, would you like to see photos of the homeless men congregating without masks, blowing smoke in the air making it impossible for people to pass by them without inhaling it, making drug deals, urinating in public and masturbating on the steps of the NY Historical Society? Just go on FB to the Upper West Siders for Safer Streets — all there for you to see. Again, your neighbors who are concerned for their own safety due to these incidents as a result of drug addicts,, the mentally ill or violent offenders being housed with other homeless men at the Upper West Side hotels, should not be demonized because they express that concern–me included. If those individuals were removed from the general population being housed we wouldn’t be having this debate. Further, pretty sure we’d all like to see our tax dollars go to programs helping those who need and want it. But, as I said before, that is not happening in this case. Finally, many of the comments I’ve read on the FB page mentioned above express concern that these men aren’t getting the supervision/programs/help they need because the city is not providing it. While everyone is frustrated with the influx of the homeless here, the anger is most definitely aimed at the city officials who put them here without the support they need. Please stop blaming residents for expressing concern for their own safety. The UWS has had its fair share of homeless regulars over the years without incident. This is a whole new ball of wax. Meanwhile just got an alert that police were called to a dispute involving a machete at West 72nd and Broadway. Probably the guy from Queens.
Re the crime stats, simply repeating something over and over does not make it more true: the actual stats do not back up your claims about crime. Adding “truly” does not make it true.
As for your claims about the homeless and their outdoor activities, I am aware of some of those things. My point is not that they don’t happen, but that people are blaming the “new” homeless in our area when they have ZERO evidence that it is coming from them. you mention my alleged demonization of those who are concerned (which is not my intent), but you are apparently happy to demonize the “new” homeless residents without knowing whether they are or have been involved in any of the activities you cite. Maybe they have, maybe they haven’t. But unless you know one homeless person from another, and where they happen to live, it is YOUR demonization of THEM that I am pointing out.
As for our tax dollars, have you looked at the City budget, or any other budget? If not, how do you know where, or how much of, our tax dollars are being used to help the situation? You make an awful lot of certitude-inflected claims, without a single shred of actual evidence. That does not engender trust or even respect.
People are absolutely entitled to their fears, feelings and perceptions. But let’s make sure we have the right culprits. “Your side” is not doing that. You are responding emotionally and engaging in fear-mongering – when at least some of those fears have no basis in fact and reality – and demonization of people based on no evidence.
The issues associated with the homeless have been with us – in every neighborhood – for decades. And I am just as interested in making sure our community is safe and vibrant as you or anyone else. And I have been doing that for over 55 years. But I will not resort to, and will not personally accept, the kind of broad-brush demonization and vilification that “your side” is engaging in.
When you are ready to have a serious, fact-based discussion of the issue, without ad hominem attacks, I am more than happy to have that discussion.
Ian,the putricity of your responses have galvanized me to comment.As a recovering addict of 16 years who lived on the streets for 13 years,you are full of bunk.Your need for documentation is hogwash.People know and see the deterioration around them; they don’t and shouldn’t have to prove it.The lack of prosecution for quality of life offenses such as open air drug use ,congregating and setting up camp wherever they please,are direct contributions to the downside of safety and quality of life .You sound like a whining out of touch liberal who’s compassion is misguided.We saw the 70s,80s,and early 90s transform into Guiliani and Bloombergs safe streets.Why the hell would anyone tolerate a backspin to those times of madness,after 25 years of orderliness ,low crime,and relative (.for Manhattan) tranquility. People know what they see,they feel what is truth; they don’t need to be repudiated by you and other rebels fighting a needless cause.
First, I think you mean putridness. There is no such word as putricity. Second, I am wondering what your being a recovering addict has to do with any of your comments.
As for those comments, I am not questioning the concerns or fears of those who have made certain comments (though I believe some of those fears are unfounded). But I would point out that homelessness has been with us for decades; it did not disappear under Giuliani or Bloomberg. In fact, Blomberg ran on a platform that included cutting homelessness by 1/3. What actually happened? Under his three terms, homelessness INCREASED by almost 1/3. And “safe streets” was done at the expense of the racist and failed “stop question frisk” policy.
As noted, homelessness – and the various issues associated with it – have been with us continuously. There have been aggressive and even violent homeless people on the UWS in the past. It is nothing new. What IS new is that far too many people are blaming the “new” homeless for everything “bad” that happens now, without a single shred of evidence to support that. THAT is my issue here: the unfair and completely unsupported vilification of the “new” homeless simply because they are new. I am not even saying that some of them (probably very few, percentage-wise) are NOT responsible for some of the things of which they are being accused: I, too, have seen them not wearing masks, and in one instance smoking pot (which, as I have said, I have seen “normal” residents do as well). But when people jump to conclusions with zero evidence – such as accusing these men of being responsible for the recent stabbing at 72nd Street (done by a non-homeless rider who got on at 42nd Street) or the sucker punch incident at 75th and Col (done by a resident of a homeless shelter in Queens, who was promptly arrested) – then, yes, I am going to speak up in their defense. It is not this “whining out of touch liberal” who needs to be “spoken to” here but the “whining NIMBY-minded, out of touch conservatives” (though I am sure not all of them would self-identify as such) who apparently have forgotten history (i.e., the existence of homeless in our area for decades, and even aggressive and occasionally violent homeless) and are thus reacting as much from perception as they are from reality. If you or any other one of them had ever attended a single Precinct Council meeting (held monthly), they would know that incidents like these NEVER STOPPED HAPPENING. Simply because you had not heard about them does not mean they did not happen. The REALITY is that nothing has actually changed. Incidents of homeless-based crime have NOT risen (though I do not know if they have fallen). Like all other crimes, there are occasional “spikes,” but rarely permanent upticks.
So while being concerned about that issue – and engaging in creating and maintaining a safe community – is a laudable thing, there is no need to demonize people while doing so.
It is the demonization of the “new” homeless to which I strongly object, not the concerns (founded or unfounded) of people who are concerned about local crime or conditions.
The address in Queens of the puncher was a homeless shelter.
Okay. But that is a homeless shelter in Queens. Not a shelter in Manhattan, much less a hotel where some are staying temporarily. The issue here as I see it is that the “new” homeless are now being blamed for everything “bad” that happens on the UWS, despite the fact that there is ZERO evidence that that is the case.
We should not tolerate this neighborhood busting
I have not signed either petition, since, as the article notes, I am one of those who feel that petitions are almost always ineffectual at actually producing change: they are usually just gauges of support or complaint that politicians use in an “advisory” capacity, but never as the sole barometer for policy change.
That said, I would be more likely to sign the latter petition (Compassionate, Safe and Equitable Community), for two reasons. First, I am a 55-year UWSer who has been active in the community since my teens. I have served on the Community Board, Community Advisory Boards, the local Precinct Council, and several private organizations, including those dealing with homelessness and hunger. I also worked directly with the local homeless population doing outreach and assistance for over a decade.
In this regard, I, too, have noticed an increasing NIMBY mentality in many of those who signed the other petition. I have been engaged in discussions on several sites, including NextDoor, and have been saddened by the number of people who make assumptions about which homeless are which, and ascribe blame to the wrong people. As you note, people take pictures of random homeless people who may or may not have done anything wrong, and simply “use” them to extrapolate and stereotype. No one is saying that there are not drug addicts and sex offenders among them. But there are drug addicts and sex offenders everywhere in the City, and I am betting that many of them liv within striking distance of playgrounds and schools, with no harm having been done, or we would be hearing about it.
A problem is not a problem until it becomes a problem – except for alarmists. Blaming these men for things they have not done simply because some have done it elsewhere is a “guilty until proven innocent” mentality which is unkind, unwarranted and mean-spirited. No, we don’t have to wait until the first child is approached by one of these men in order to do something about it. But that does not mean it is okay to demonize and vilify them.
That there are two separate petitions is actually sad. We all want the same thing.
So we should ALL be working TOGETHER to make and keep our communities safe – for ALL its residents, including those less fortunate or in dire situations – without demonizing anyone.
This is only the start. The city is clearly crumbling with our mayor and governor making sure we don’t go full steam and open up economy. This cripples our budget, more people will be homeless, we also have less police because a few people who protested asked for it and the mayor answered to it WITHOUT A PUBLIC VOTE. We better stand up for our safety now, because if we don’t this will be Detroit in a second.
There is no need for fear-mongering and hyperbole. The city is NOT crumbling; it is in lockdown like many other cities, and for good reason. Yes, the economy is an issue, but it will come back. We do not know with any certainty that it will lead to more homelessness. It might, it might not. As for the mayor, while I have no particular love for him, he does not need a public vote to either enact the laws put on his desk by the City Council, or instruct the NYPD what to do; he is the mayor, he has those rights, as did every mayor before him. As for comparisons with Detroit, their crime rate has risen precipitously, and is among the worst in the country. NYC’s crime rate has DROPPED in all areas except murder (which is obviously not good), but even the murders are attributable almost entirely to gang violence and rivalries. These stats are easily found. So your paranoia is simply not warranted by the facts, whatever your perception might be.
I don’t know where you got your “stats” from but I checked them because I believe very little of what you say. You claim “NYC’s crime rate has DROPPED in all areas except murder”. The stat I easily found state that July 2020 crime stats show 177% increase year over year in shootings. Murders up 30% year over year. Burglaries rose 31% y to y from 989 to 1297. Year to date they are up 45%. Transit crimes dropped 41% while housing crimes increased 11.3%. Robberies decreased 6.6%; Grand Larcenies down 25.1%. Auto thefts increased to 892 citywide a 53% increase year to year. Assaults down 4.8%. Rapes down 6%.
I’m not sure what stats you are looking at. Here are the stats for “index crime” 2019 vs 2020. “Index crimes” are the most serious ones, and ones tracked most closely:
Murder: 30 (2019), 39 (2020) Up 30%
Rape: 138 (2019), 109 (2020) Down 21%
Robbery: 1153 (2019), 948 (2020) Down 17.8%
Assault: 1953 (2019), 1947 (2020) Down 0.3%
Burglary: 817 (2019), 1783 (2020) Up 118%
Grand Larceny: 3744 (2019), 2317 (2020) Down 38%
So burglary was the only thing I was incorrect about. In fact, you have largely proved my point that, for the most part, “crime stats” in general have dropped since 2019. Thanks for making my point. BTW, according to the NYPD stats, Transit crime is down 49%, housing crime is up 1% (not 11%), and even hate crimes are down, by an average of 75%.
BTW, I get my stats directly from the NYPD.
My stats are also from the NYPD for July 2020 according to an article from AMNY. I like how you conveniently left out the fact that shootings were up 177% percent in July in NYC. I guess that’s because you believe that homeless people could not possibly get their hands on a gun or associate with people who own one. Also the only reason transit crimes are down is because ridership is down significantly, but there have been several violent crimes on the subway lately which were covered by the media.
I did not “conveniently leave out” anything. I simply did not make a clear distinction between “shootings” and “murders.” So yes, if murders are up, then “shootings” are up.
“I guess that’s because you believe that homeless people could not possibly get their hands on a gun or associate with people who own one.”
That is flat-out paranoia. According to the current C.O. of the 20th precinct (to whom I have a direct line), there has never been a SINGLE incident of a homeless person using a gun for ANY crime in the confines of the 20th Precinct. (The most recent violent crime by a homeless person was back in summer 2016 when one homeless person attacked another homeless person with a pipe.) And although he cannot speak specifically to other areas, he said that if there have been such incidents, they are “as rare as a snowy day in June.”
As for transit crimes, it is actually concerning that transit crime is down by so little given the lower ridership.
As for violent crimes in the subway, only a single incident this year involved a homeless person; all the others (as many half a dozen or more) were perpetrated by recidivist criminals.
Your antipathy toward the homeless – and your gleeful willingness to assume they are criminals – is both unwarranted and sad.
Considering you have a direct line to the C.O. of the 20th precinct, perhaps you can ask him why they never did anything about that pos that used to be at the median at 79th & Broadway at all hours of the day screaming & cursing at pedestrians & running into traffic. Not sure if he is still there as I haven’t been by there in awhile. He was there daily for over a year. I’m sure you are thrilled to have more like him in the neighborhood!
That’s Carl…I read somewhere he has a family who lives in the UWS, he goes back to them and then has an episode and stays on the streets during them. Fun times!
As John Jay notes, that man’s name is Carl, and he has been at that location for some time. The reason the NYPD has not “done anything” about him is that he has not committed any crimes. While it may be odd, simply standing on a median screaming at the world (even if intoxicated) is not a crime. And actually, the 20th Precinct is more concerned about his two new “friends,” a woman and a man, who have joined him, and seem to exacerbate his issues. The NYPD is monitoring the situation as we speak.
As an aside, I have already suggested that if anyone sees Carl doing anything actually illegal, particularly if he becomes aggressive with passers-by, they should call 911. Local police will not respond to calls direct to the station. A 911 call gets routed to the station within seconds. Please make sure you are calling about a true danger (highly aggressive, threatening, menacing) and not just his usual antics. The more 911 calls that get logged, the more likely he is to be removed.
And the sarcasm of your last sentence in unnecessary and unhelpful.
Speaking of “Carl” his picture is in The New York Post today. Shout out to the 20th precinct for letting him harass the neighborhood for years without any consequences. Looks like moving all these homeless people into the neighborhood to join him is working out really well.
https://nypost.com/2020/08/08/nyc-moms-fleeing-upper-west-side-amid-crime-and-chaos/
Do you understand the concept of laws? Unless and until Carl breaks a law for which he can be arrested, then no, the 20th Precinct cannot do anything about him. If you want that to change, you need to lobby your elected officials to CREATE laws that would change that.
Pepper, I’m surprised (despite being lower in some categories) crime was that high considering the city has been in lockdown. I also got my stats from the NYPD and I just want to note something they emphasized and that is that while rape stats are down, rape is usually under reported. I think those stats were through June when we were still in the early stages of reopening in NYC. Usually, crime goes up in summer months and now that we are in stage 4 of reopening I don’t expect that the rest of the summer will be an exception.
All petitions end up in a garbage can. Those “less fortunate” found easy way to do nothing – other will take care of them.The more help,more will come.Nothing will help, Helen Rosenthal will lie endlessly to all,no bums in her area.Solution;stop to help them,this is why they here.No help-they will leave.All have families,children ets. UWS feeds all NY careless politicians,we pay highest rent,taxes,fees ets and we do not have to beg for services.Let’s sue the city,hire low firm,hire more security,stop to pay taxes or move to other states.Don’t behave as high school.drop outs.City must provide us accordingly to money they get from us.
You obviously know little or nothing about the homeless. I worked with them every day for over 10 years. Everything you have said about them is completely wrong, dismissive and mean-spirited. The overwhelming number of homeless are so due to circumstances beyond their control; and no, they do not become homeless due to alcohol or drugs. Exactly the opposite. It is the ‘homeless spiral” that turns them INTO alcoholics and drug addicts. And that is because too many people DON’T care, and the problem is intractable and multi-faceted, so politicians are rarely able to do much except throw money at it. And while money is certainly needed, it is only part of the solution. Please learn something about homelessness so you do not make statements that are verifiably untrue.
Walked 72nd street between west end and Broadway today. There has been an encampment of several men on the sidewalk for several weeks. And a woman rolled in a blanket next to a food cart.
The problem of homelessness has been around for decades. We see more of them during the summer because it is warmer. There is nothing new about this. It is a difficult and multi-faceted issue, and needs addressing, but the answer is NOT to demonize and vilify the homeless (I’m not accusing YOU of doing so), but to try to become part of the solution, to whatever degree we can. Ultimately, though, the problem will persist until our politicians take a multi-pronged, long-term approach, working closely with homeless organizations and others, so that all aspects of the problem are worked on in concert.
Thank you, Ian, for being the only one in this chain who seems to understand the issues and have any ability to articulate a reasonable position. It is absurd to listen to someone complain about walking past someone “shooting up,” for instance, while admitting they didn’t bother to call the police because the police “never do anything.” Wherever the fault lies, the tragedy is in the dishonesty, ignorance, and the absence of the compassion and empathy that was once a trademark of my neighborhood of 45 years – or so I thought.
Thank you for the kind words. I hear you. I have been on the UWS for 55 years, and have been active in the community for the entire time. I do not love it any less than others. But I am sad to see people reacting emotionally, and engaging in demonization, vilification and fear-mongering. Yes, there are some bad things happening on the UWS, and elsewhere in the City, but if one is going to place blame, one should have facts and evidence before accusing someone. These people have simply decided to accuse the “new” homeless population of everything “bad” that happens on the UWS, even when they have ZERO evidence to support it. Are the “new” homeless responsible for SONE things, particularly poor behavior re mask-wearing, pot-smoking (which is also done plenty by “normal” residents, including outside), etc.? Yes, I’m sure they contribute to it. But to vilify them en masse and broad-brush them is inaccurate, unfair and mean-spirited.
We need an advocate who cares about the constituents of the UWS as well as the needs of the homeless, and Helen Rosenthal is merely a bearer of bad news.
Hear, hear! I agree.
Ian, thank you for your compassion, your valiant attempt to inject some civility into this conversation, and your efforts on behalf of the less fortunate. You have a good soul!
Thank you. I appreciate your kind comments. I do want to apologize to anyone who feels that I come off too strongly or stridently, but I have been down this road before, and it can be frustrating. As a 55-year UWSer, I have always worked to try to keep out community safe, healthy and vibrant. Peace.
You may feel comfortable having sex offenders and violent criminals in your neighborhood, but don’t try to shame people for being concerned about their families, neighbors and neighborhood. The homeless should be given assistance, but not at the expense of our safety and well being.
You seem to miss my point. I don’t want sex offenders or violent criminals in my neighborhood any more than anyone else. And I am not shaming anyone for their concerns. What I AM shaming them for is who they are ACCUSING of things. From the beginning of this, the issue has been that too many people started out by accusing the “new” homeless on the UWS of everything “bad” that has been happening, without ANY evidence that those particular men had anything to do with any of it, besides some bad behavior like not wearing masks and smoking put on the street (which, for the record, I see plenty of ‘normal” residents doing. The “shaming” began with others vilifying and demonizing the “new” homeless for actions and crimes for which they are not responsible.
What I’m hearing the two main reasons for homeless to be moved to hotels is fear of spread of the Covid-19 because of group shelters and to help hotels financially during this pandemic. So right now we have people in the streets not social distancing and not wearing masks, making it hard for the community to go about daily life. A simple fix would be more aggressive sign in and sign out – listing reasons for going out, an earlier curfew, warnings for lack of mask, and dispersing residents that are congregating more than 4 people in public areas. Write up the people who can’t follow community guidelines. The shelters that were previously being used, divide up living sections with plexiglass, and have the people who can’t abide by the community guidelines moved back. Having people in shelters and hotels would help the burden of UWS not equipped for all of this influx of new residents, and fix the overcrowding of shelters. Wouldn’t these tweaks would help make the community a bit back to normal, and allow for the 2 main goals ot be reached and keeping EVERYONE safer?
I agree with all of this, except dispersing groups that are congregating. These men have the same rights as all of us once they are outside the facility. So they have the same right to congregate as we do, as long as they are not doing something illegal (e.g., taking drugs, etc.) while congregating. However, all your other suggestions are spot on, and my understanding is that if you take a photo of one or more of the men engaging in something that violates the rules of their residency, and show it to the supervisor on site or one of the security team, that person or persons will be removed from the facility and sent elsewhere.
The facility (and DHS) does not have the personpower to monitor everyone at all times. So it is up to us to do assist. If anyone sees any of these men engaged in anything from not wearing their mask to drinking alcohol or taking drugs, or whatever, take a photo on your phone, walk over to the hotel, and show it to someone in charge. That is our first line of defense.
Homelessness is an industry
If all these people were put in appropriate housing
Thousands would lose their jobs
So it’ll never be fixed
Adam: I would guess that to SOME degree you may be correct. But what IS the qui bono here? Who exactly benefits from maintaining a homeless population? Any money received from federal and State sources must be accounted for, so even if there is some pocket-lining going on, it is very very minimal.
I would also add that it is not as simple as providing housing. Even if you gave every single homeless person a place to live – free of charge – many would end up returning to the streets, for a variety of reasons. Chief among these is mental illness. I worked with the street homeless for over a decade, including helping them find housing. And while there were many successes, there were some who had gone so far down the “homeless spiral” that they could never be able to live independently again.
Ultimately, homelessness is a multi-faceted issue, and requires a multi-faceted response. THAT is why it has never been solved; not because people would lose their jobs, or because someone benefits from it. But because of the sheer number of issues involved: poverty, unemployment, mental illness, housing, social services, health care and, yes, alcohol and drug rehab.
It is not nearly as simple as you suggest.
Check out today’s New York Post which has yet another story about the homeless crisis on the Upper West Side. And yes, it is a crisis! There is a picture of “Carl” who has been loitering at 79th St & Broadway for years, harassing & intimidating people. Kudos to the 20th precinct who can’t seem to do anything about him. . The Daily Mail has also been running stories on this all week…complete with pictures. Isn’t it nice to see New York getting such great international press? It will take tourism decades to recover from all negativity & we have DeBlasio & his crew to thank!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8606553/Homeless-men-seen-sharing-swigs-liquor-urinating-outside-luxury-Upper-West-hotels.html
As I just wrote to another poser here, do you understand the concept of laws? Unless and until Carl does something for which he can be arrested, the 20th Precinct cannot and will not remove him. That is the LAW. If you want that to change, you need to lobby lawmakers to CREATE laws that would allow the NYPD to remove him. The NYPD is NOT the party to blame here. It is not a crime to be homeless, or even to rant at the world on the street, even under the influence of alcohol. If you see Carl do something that warrants removal or arrest – openly threatening or menacing someone, etc. – then call 911. Make sure you are not calling about his usual antics, or YOU might be fined for filing a false report. But if your allegation warrants removal and/or arrest, the 911 call gets routed to the precinct within seconds, and the police will arrive quickly.
As for the Daily Mail stories, they are a bunch of hyper-sensationalized, fear-mongering crap. To begin with, not one single photo that accompanied the first article was taken anywhere near the three hotels in question. The photo in that story that looks like a homeless party was taken on 95th and Broadway, and that condition existed long before Covid. And some of the photos are plainly doctored. The photo in the story you post above that is labelled “Hotel Bellclaire” is a composite photo, using elements from around the area (the side of teh Apple Bank, the 77th Street sign, the awning of the Belleclaire, etc.), but is NOT of the Belleclaire Hotel. And why the hell would you care about what a British newspaper says about a local problem, particularly when that publication is the National Enquirer of the U.K.?
As for tourism, surely you jest. Noting on God’s great earth is going to stop the influx of tourists when the virus crisis is over, and NYC is fully open for business. Tourists have seen NYC in all its good and bad ways for decades. It has never kept them away before, and it will not in the future.
You seriously are delusional. Keep defending this lawlessness. You are doing a huge disservice to the community. Last time I checked, having an open container & using drugs or possessing drugs is illegal in NY. Do you really think that every person this creep has harassed has bothered to call the police.? Maybe if the NYPD would give him a summons or run him through the system frequently he would get the message he is not welcome here. As for the Daily Mail, it is a UK publication that has a large readership in the US along with a US TV program. They actually cover more local NY stories that the NY media does not. So happy you were able to pick out the “doctored” photos. Most readers can’t. Read the comments (which I’m sure you will dismiss) & you will see how many people say they will NEVER visit NYC now & what a hellhole it has become. Maybe you can chime in on the comments there & share your valuable observations & opinions. The longer it takes for tourism to recover, the longer people will be unemployed. This is just going to exacerbate the homeless problem , thanks to people like you who think that moving hundreds of homeless people in a residential community is a great idea.
Is that what you want NYPD to do? Monitor open containers and pot smoking? (Which, by he way, are ticketable, not arrestable, offenses, and would not have the result you seek.) Not only would that be an enormous waste of resources, but they would also have to ticket locals for the same thing: having a beer or on their stoop or smoking pot on the street, which many do.
As for whether the people that Carl has “harrassed” (and keep in mind that the legal bar for “harassment” is higher than you think), that is the problem; they DON’T call the police. But that is the only way to get anything done. The more 911 calls they get, the more likely it is that he will be removed. Again, if you don’t like the laws, lobby your lawmakers to CREATE them.
As for the Daily Mail, I have many friends in England, and the DM is widely considered little more than the kind of rag you would buy in the U.S. to find out who Brad Pitt is sleeping with this week. And as for what the commenters say, that is just bloviation. I guarantee that when the U.S., and NYC, is “open for business,” they will not hesitate to come, no matter what they may say on comment threads.
As for ongoing unemployment and potential increased homelessness, on this we agree.
Re moving homeless people into a “residential neighborhood,” where would YOU put them – in a warehouse? Are you even listening to yourself? The homeless have lived among us in residential neighborhoods – albeit in shelters and, formerly, SROs – for decades. And there have always been issues. But a flat-out NIMBY approach is neither helpful nor constructive. If you don’t like what your lawmakers are doing, vote them out, and hope that the next batch will create new laws and give more teeth to current laws, and solve problems that generations of politicians have been unable to solve – though all I can say, based on the intractability of the homeless issue, is good luck with that. As I have said almost ad nauseam, the homeless issue is very complex and multi-faceted. So until our electeds approach it that way and come up with a comprehensive multi-faceted approach to the problem, little or nothing is going to change.
Hi Pepper, Since it has been suggested, in a condescending tone, that you don’t understand the concept of laws, I thought this might be useful. Police may not think it’s worth enforcing though since Carl, while annoying, is not really a threat (that I know of) to public safety. Note I do not see the need to emphasize a point in all caps as I know screeching only alienates people when in dialogue. And I recognize that by posting this, the self-appointed authority on all things relating to this string will have to have the last word.
https://newfieldny.org/wp-content/uploads/Noise-Ordinance-Recommendation.pdf
LOL. Yes, I will comment. Because once again people think that simply posting something makes it true, or that they understand what they are posting. First, NY Penal Code section 240.20 has been amended several times. More importantly, disorderly conduct is a violation, not even a misdemeanor, so, as I said, the only thing the NYPD might do is give him a ticket, which is not the result you want.
i would strongly suggest that everyone here begin attending the monthly 20th Precinct Council meetings beginning in September. (They do not meet during the summer). They are held the fourth Monday of every month, at the precinct, and the Commanding Office is always in attendance, to provide monthly crime stats, and take questions, comments and complaints from the attendees. This is something you can actually DO to help get your issues resolved.
The point of the program was to give homeless a place to shelter during COVID. It’s obvious from the photos, which match my own experiences, that the program residents are neither quarantining nor following any basic protocol on distancing or mask wearing. They’re now consolidated, clustered together in what is sure to be a hotspot of illness, in the middle of a residential neighborhood. It is our absolute right to protest this program, which does solve the first problem while making at least three new ones.
You are basically correct. However, quarantining does not mean staying in a single room and never going out. They are permitted to, and should, go out, for the very reason that otherwise the hotels become nothing but petri dishes.
As for “middle of a residential neighborhood,” I’m not sure you are aware, but as someone who has lived on the UWS for 55 years, I can assure you we have had homeless people living ion this residential neighborhood for all that time – in shelters, former SROs, etc. There have been very few incidents involving them, and the majority of people here are compassionate and tolerant about their presence.
I do not think it is the program itself that is wrong, but the way in which it was foist on communities and the apparent lack of appropriate controls, despite 20 security people in each building and an on-site social service supervisor. It was badly thought-out and badly implemented.
More good news in today’s New York Post which I’m sure you will either discredit or defend. Curtis Sliwa & the Guardian Angels were in the neighborhood & at the hotels. Here is a quote:
But Sliwa, citing a security guard at one of the three hotels, said Sunday that the scene inside the makeshift shelters is every bit as troubling.
“Once they are in their room, other than if it’s an extreme emergency, you don’t have access to them. So they are shooting up in the rooms, nickel- and dime-bags of heroin, very cheap, $5, $10,” Sliwa relayed of the Hotel Belleclaire. “At times they can smell the K2, they can smell the crack being smoked in the rooms
“Once you are in your room, it’s your own little island.”
Do you have any idea what the effect is on people who smoke K2 or crack? One no longer needs to go up to 125th & Lexington to find out.
With respect, why would I believe either Sliwa or, more cogently, his single security guard source? In fact, my own experience with a security guard at the Lucerne led to his being fired for trying to attack me. So I’m not sure about the reliability of those guards. They actually have a vested interest in lying, so that they don’t have to guard the homeless and can be transferred to another location.
Wow, you took my comment into your own agenda. I never thought I would have to defend calling the UWS a residential neighborhood, so I won’t.
When I am outside, I social distance and have a mask on. When I am in Zabars, I social distance and have a mask on. I only go out once a week to get groceries and have seen my mom once since March to protect her health, and mine, as we are both immuno-compromised. I take this seriously, they are not. The longer people do not, the longer this will go on.
Yes, quarantining does not mean a jail cell, but they were provided with a room so they would have a place to be besides the street. What I have seen on broadway and 79, large groups of maskless people sharing drink and drugs and cigarettes is not going to make the situation better and means a longer sentence for people like me.
Exactly. Well said.
Sorry. There was no attempt to make it part of any “agenda,” of which I have none. Like you, I wear my mask (and gloves) whenever I am outside, and maintain social distance. I do get out every day, either for a walk or bike ride, because it is important to get “fresh air” and movement.
My comment was simply to point out that, even in “quarantine,” people are expected to get fresh air, and not sit in a home, apartment or room for the enter time of quarantine. I was simply pointing out that “quarantine” does not mean what a lot of people thin it means.
And, for me, the lack of mask-wearing is far more worrisome than drinking alcohol or smoking pot – which I see plenty of “normal” residents doing as well.
Ultimately, I would agree with your overall feeling that that behavior is not going to make the virus situation better.
The issue there seems to be lack of monitoring and control, which is up to the security staff, social service staff and overall program. The one thing on which I think everyone on both “sides” can agree is that the plan, as well-intentioned and even necessary as it might have been, was badly planned, badly implemented, and is being badly controlled.
You ABSOLUTELY have an agenda. Perhaps YOU do not see it, but you have it.
Really, the abject stupidity of comparing what these animals (and for whatever reason, they are NOW animals) are doing in our streets to people seeking out fresh air. And your nonsense comparing the drinking and weed smoking of these alleged humans to the drinking and smoking of generally law abiding citizens. How about the crack smoking, and the public masturbation? And your great wisdom that maybe it is not the “new” homeless in the area who are causing the problems. But more than likely it is. Be quiet.
You have issues, lady. There has not been crack in NYC for over 25 years! You are spewing right-wing talking points from the 1980s. And your use of the term “animals” to describe ANY human being is so repugnant, ignorant and intolerant that it brands you as less than human yourself. Nice try!
You are arrogant to a fault. You are a pusher of a private agenda. You have the unmitigated arrogance to correct people’s vocabulary on this thread. You suffer from what is called Status Superior. But… just deny it.
LOL, you are delusional. Right wing my butt. What do you know about my politics? Does your vomit supporting the infiltration of the neighborhood by these fine upstanding citizens brand you a liberal? Or, are you a fist in the air, foot in the mouth clown with a very private agenda, namely, to exhibit yourself as a saintly soul? No crack in NYC? What crack are you smoking? And whatever the ellicit drugs that your pals are using in public, what is the difference.? Face it, you have an agenda, and the agenda is yourself. You will become “right wing” when one of your buddies decides to physically harass you., or someone close to you. There are hundreds of unfortunate FAMILIES who are in need of safe shelter. Why weren’t THEY availed of these hotel rooms, and these violent “animals” (OOPS, I did it again), kept in the shelters? You want to talk about repugnant? Your pontificating about why these people belong here is repugnant.
“Witness” your comment in my opinion, is the best comment on this entire thread. Thank you!
Thank you. 🙂
You have been electing those clowns for decades. Elections have consequences. You should have thought about that before you voted for those azzhats. Moreover, you’ve made thousands of other New Yorkers live with it in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx, now it’s your turn, snowflake.
After all, black lives matter. Right? Except in your neighborhood.
DEFUND THE POLICE, ESPECIALLY ON THE UWS. THE SOONER THE BETTER.
“Decades?” REALLY?! Let’s see, DeBlasio has been mayor for ~6 years. Before him? Bloomberg for 12 years. Before HIM? Giuliani for 8 year. So where, exactly are you getting “decades? from? Prior to DeBlasio, we had Republican mayors since 1993. Nice try, though.
Ian Alterman: Just came across your Aug.10 post on this thread: “my own experience with a security guard at the Lucerne led to his being fired for trying to attack me.”
After reading through your obnoxious posts on this and other threads, I completely understand and sympathize…with the guard.
LGC:
I am sincerely sorry you feel that way.
This is for Ian Alterman.
We had a lot of disagreements on Nextdoor, but I support your positions. I was just very concerned about COVID, not for us EXCLUSIVE UWS residents, but for the residents of the Lucerne, who had and have enough to deal with.
I’d like to discuss something with you, but not on this forum. Can you reply if you’re interested and we can figure out how to communicate?
I couldn’t click the box to be notified of follow-up comments, but I’m sure you can find me if nec.
Marty